A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to [email protected]!
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy
and I'm saying that as a firm Mastodon user and believer.
2 and 3 are massive. I'm on Mastodon, but am having a much better time on Bluesky. Mastodon is full of gatekeeping and policing and people complaining - Bluesky is just fun and interesting, like Twitter 12 years ago
Who are these people who actually FIND users go follow on either service???
I have Bluesky. I have Mastodon. I log into each every few months, realize nothing has changed, and there is nobody to follow.
Then I don't use either, until I wonder a few months later "heeeey, I wonder if people are on these services yet......"
Still no.
Mastodon revolves around following topics and hashtags, not individuals. I learned that early on, and am having a much better experience.
Well then it will never be useful for me. I want to follow PEOPLE. I want people to follow me for the random shit I say.
Then they retweet the random shit, and now a whole NEW group of people can wonder what's wrong with me.
I follow hashtags I like, then see who the people are who use those tags, then follow those people.
I find that I discover people that way I would not have found otherwise.
It's worked well for me so far. I wasn't a twitter person before though, so I don't know if I have the experience you did for comparison.
I'm not on any of the services currently, but I have tried Mastodon in the past and point 4. was what made me bounce off it. I know Mastodon flaunts its algorithm-free feed as almost a point of pride, but as a user it just doesn't do it for me. I could not get it to serve me the type of content I wanted the way I wanted, and it just felt like way too much work for what I was looking for.
Marketing, sure, but the onboarding from Instagram was a massive factor for Threads growth.
They have marketing budgets.
Does Bluesky? Have they been running marketing? Much of what I've seen/heard of it has been more a result of Twitter imploding and people bringing up alternatives than any concerted marketing pushes.
edited for clarity, realized I'd overlooked Threads mention
They probably have good discovery and trending post mechanisms. Mastodon makes it a point not to have one, which results in a wholly uninteresting feed for the average user. I'm only on mastodon, but I very rarely use it, because it mostly sucks unless you spend several, several hours trying to track down fun accounts to follow yourself.
That is my experience too. It's because there is no distinction between posts and comments, I think. It's about as interesting as my sms chats with friends would be to strangers.
People I spoke to didn't understand how a server and an app could be disconnected. They also didn't want to learn what the hell federation was and why people could register the same username for some reason. By the time you get to "it's like email" they've already downloaded another app.
Most people didn't want the Fediverse. They wanted Twitter that wasn't as shit as Twitter. Nobody cares about ActivityPub or ATProto, those are side notes to usable apps and experiences.
Bluesky also has more people go follow and interact with. Mastodon is for people who have a favourite Linux distro and people who follow people who have a favourite Linux distro. Bluesky is for everyone else.
Threads came free with an existing account. People downloaded it out of curiosity and were already signed in and set up.
The guy behind Technology Connections is on Mastodon and has explained several times what terrible consequences having more than a few friends follow you can have for usability. None of these apps were designed for a million followers, human moderation falls short and automatic moderation doesn't work. Every server has a different view of existing comments so they'll think they're the first to make a certain reply, causing a horde of reply guys to all say the same thing. His complaints are very valid and I don't expect him to last long on there, but he's doing his best to stick around. If he goes, I'm sure at least a few people will go with him.
Platforms like Bluesky have it easier dealing with moderation and are willing to use automatic moderation. It's hardly perfect, but it works better than not moderating anything until a report comes in.
I'll speak about my experience. Bluesky feels like an upgrade to Twitter. There are many algorithmic feeds to choose from, and it's easy to discover people to follow. Mastodon, on the other hand, is a straight downgrade from Bluesky because it is lacking in those features.
I imagine a lot of people leaving Twitter feel similarly. They don't care much about privacy or federation. Bluesky just works, and that's what matters to them.
What do you mean by privacy? Mastodon doesnt have privacy or encryption
Because the Mastodon community did the same thing we do every time there is a chance to get people away from corporations (e.g. Linux vs Windows).
People were looking for an alternative. The general consensus was it was hard to really grok federation. So, of course, The Community insisted on explaining federation and why it was good while basically only commenting on the instances that had closed applications. It was the equivalent of insisting someone who wanted to try Linux for gaming NEEDS to use arch and only needs to know twenty command line operations to get up and running.
So... everyone instead just went to Bluesky and Threads where sign-up links were provided rather than directory links and manifestos.
And... I am perfectly happy with that. Lemmy has a LOT of issues where so much of the community is talking about their ex-girlfriend (reddit) all the time and we basically get constant content and engagement farming that makes no fucking sense considering the userbase.
Whereas Mastodon actually IS a really good community that feels very different from twitter/bluesky/threads. It isn't for everyone but I very regularly have genuinely good conversations with people in the town hall/microblog format. Whereas... I am not sure if I have ever had even a meaningful conversation on lemmy (whereas I've probably had maybe ten on reddit over the years?).
So... everyone instead just went to Bluesky and Threads where sign-up links were provided rather than directory links and manifestos.
Wild! This was my exact thought as I was signing up for Mastadon. I spent like 15 minutes figuring out what Mastadon is, what server to join, what each server means. Then I did the thing like I did with Lemmy and created half a dozen accounts waiting to see which server gave me my "Account Created" email first.
I agree with you, people end up going the perceived “easy route” because of the amount of explaining and low level protocol exposure that they receive from someone who is trying to sell them on joining an ActivityPub network. And that’s just the people who are trying to encourage them to join, then there’s the people that straight up think “normal social media” people don’t belong on the fediverse because of one biased reason or another…
Several reasons:
Generally speaking, how is Mastodon any better than Bluesky? How is Lemmy any better than Reddit? If you can't answer that in a way the average person gives a fuck about, what's the argument for using them?
To many, federation is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist for them. In their mind, the early model of federation is like email, a problem that was "solved" years ago by having one corporate product that was much better than others (Gmail).
To add, on top of that, the fediverse is like if gmail could just randomly decide to stop receiving emails from outlook addresses and there's nothing any user can do about it except make another email for when they want to email outlook users.
I don't think fediverse proponents know just how catastrophically this terminates their entire pitch in the minds of 99% of internet users
I needed to scroll way too much to see people mention marketing and advertising. It's a huge deal.
The power of good advertising is not to be underestimated. There is a good statistically proven reason why so much money flows into it. And it's not only traditional advertising but viral and "astroturfed" advertising.
There is a good statistically proven reason why so much money flows into it.
Too many smug people think, "advertising doesnt work on me! Hah! Only weak minded normies fall for it..."
Wrong.... Advertising works. And that's the reason a shit ton of money that goes into it.
You want to know the reason why i run adblockers in my browser AND DNS levels? Because i KNOW advertising works on me.... i KNOW i'm not smart enough to outsmart the army of engineers, and copywriters generating this stuff.
Source: i work in advertising lol
Its easier to just sign up and find everyone immediately, than to go learn what are instances and which one should you choose to make an account on, and then go and learn how to find other people that are not on that instance, or how to check do they have a mastodon account at all, then go and learn how to XY.
The "go and learn" is something that people, most of them, just don't want to do. If you need to learn how to use something, this is the first indicator of a bad user experience. It should be obviously easy for a new person to get around.
Valid question, but Americans in particular are easily swayed by the fact that the corporate ownership is listed as a "Public Benefit Corporation." Bluesky is a PBC and for most people that's enough "proof" that they will "be for the public good."
In that it is set up to "benefit the public good" people just... buy into that, even if the company isn't actually benefitting the public good.
Look at how long it took for people to wise up that the Susan G. Komen foundation was spending most of its money on their CEOs and ads and very little on actually helping people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_G._Komen_for_the_Cure#Pinkwashing
For the general public, Open Source generally means "difficult to set up and use with bad user interface."
And yes, the whole self-hosting thing with numerous servers is confusing to people who have never had to step outside of the corporate-dominated internet.
All that is self-evident based on the original reddit exodus to here on Lemmy. The initial exodus lead to tons of people complaining about lack of features on Lemmy with very few people actually stepping up to contribute to the code-base to bring those features to light. They're just far too used to private company doing all that "for free" (*cough for all your private data cough) and struggle to understand how the different way it is set up means you don't get all the fancy features from the get-go.
So people saw an option with corporate sponsorship and money behind it, and they leap to that. Also I'm sure Bluesky is investing in advertising their product, which is competing with zero advertising dollars spend on the no-corporate fediverse.
I don't disagree with your points but I think they apply to pretty specific groups. I doubt that the average person knows or cares that Bluesky is a PBC. The reaction of the average person to 'open source' is probably, "I have no idea what that is and please for the love of god don't explain it to me."
The initial exodus lead to tons of people complaining about lack of features on Lemmy with very few people actually stepping up to contribute to the code-base to bring those features to light.
Dude.....I have zero clue how to use linux. Which I assume is easier than writting code. You think I'm going to write a program in C++ or whatever language?
Saying the users aren't developing the program is like saying the hospital patients aren't willing to be their own doctor.
Users will ALWAYS bring up issues, and if the developers want the platform to grow, they'll implement upgrades to fix those issues.
Otherwise, you just have a userbase that rejects your platform, goes somewhere else, and a small group on the platform wondering why it's not growing.
Which is basically the core of this post.
There's a few technical and non technical reasons someone might be on Bluesky/AT instead of Activity Pub. Protocol specific there's:
) Account ownership (theoretically at least, migration is still in development). Though it's hidden behind domain based identification there's a cryptographic key that let's you migrate to another PDS even if yours is down or banned you.
) Performance. Hosting something like a PDS is lighter than an Activity Pub instance.
) User level configuration. Bluesky let's you set custom moderation lists and algorithms, something you can't on Activity Pub.
) Compatibility. Building something like a link aggregator on AT that is compatible with a microblogging platform like Bluesky is likely a lot easier then Activity Pub since AT is broken up into PDSs and Relays. (To be fair compatibility does work on Activity Pub, but it's got jank).
There's also some less technical reasons as well:
) Bluesky is a platform and you don't need to learn a protocol to use it. Yeah it's not that hard to learn how any of the big three protocols work, but it's also not that hard to change your car's oil or sew ripped cloths instead of replacing them - but how many people do those? I'd guess 80% of Lemmy is an IT guy between 20-45 so it can get a little echo chambery on how easy tech is. One if the reasons Threads makes up 99.5%+ of the fediverse.
) Defederatiation is becoming a mess. If some random Joe has a friend on Bluesky & Nostr (both bridged), a few on threads, and a few spread across different instances; yet he can't reach all but 1 or 2 of them from the instance he chose to join on joinmastodon it might be time to reconsider how things are done. Techy people might have no problem sifting through a long list of servers to find the right one, but somebody who's already on the fence is probably going to quit at that point.
) Bluesky has a more mainstream culture, while the fediverse has very specific thoughts and ideas. Had I said I was on Windows you all might have put a hit out on me 😆
Mastodon and the fediverse in general are weirdly user-unfriendly, and then some fucking programmer pops in to say,
"Oh! You can fix that! All you have to do is hop over to their github page and..."
Lol
If they can make the user experience good, we might get the basis for a new internet, but they'd have to build it first.
My perspective as someone who is mainly active in the anime/gaming fandom and gamedev space:
Overall, I think the main problems on Mastodon's side are difficult onboarding and lack of actual community-building efforts. Also, the community just seems to be less welcoming for creators in general imo
Mastodon overwhelmed me. I hopped on the website and had no idea what I was looking at. I didn't understand federation. I basically had the option of what niche hobby to join on Mastadon and no indication that I would he able to access a broader forum, so I said "Well, this fucking sucks." and left.
Threads and BlueSky are likely as accessible as making an account and you're done.
A marketing budget. The Fediverse has none, and we're competing with the big boys.
I still don't understand those platforms. Didn't when Twitter launched and still don't now that there's several of them. Same thing for like Facebook or its predecessors. They're all more about the person than the message and I honestly quite frankly don't give a shit about random people on the internet.
I'm only on the fediverse but I miss algorithms. Recommended accounts (which to be fair exists on a corner of Mastodon), similar accounts to one you just followed, custom home feed, suggested posts, etc. Discoverability sucks on fedi and the lack of interest from devs for some sort of private FOSS implementation is disappointing.
Loops was like let's have a "For You" algo early this year but even that seems to be a dead idea.
Threads was because if you had an Instagram account it ported over.
Bluesky was the Twitter clone made by the old Twitter CEO.
Most people didn't have a problem with Twitter being a corporation, they had a problem with the new owner of the corporation making the experience terrible with his new changes.
I used mastodon for a year. It didn’t really work out for me. I just took so much effort to find content or build an audience.
I didn’t go to threads because it’s owned by Zuck. But Bluesky is FOSS add free and decentralised, so I tried it out, and honestly (I’ll probably get hate here for this) but the experience is far better than mastodon. There’s an algorithm, everything works. Mastodon had always been buggy for me. The UI is nice, the community is nice etc.
Plus thanks to bridgy, all of my bluesky posts are automatically displayed on mastodon and I can follow people from mastodon on bluesky.
for me, it was discoverability. Like, several guides said "use tags" but 4 out of 5 people DON"T. And more often than not, when you do search the tags, you see several posts that aren't what you wanted at all. Or worse, the tag you search doesn't have any posts newer than several months to a year. Basically it relied on an honor system where few people had honor.
I'm on both Mastodon and Bluesky but BS feels smoother and gives me more content after following some users and content than Mastodon ever did. I really want MD to work out and I'll go back there but I have neither the time nor the skills to develop or grow it myself.
Bluesky is a lot easier to use fresh out of the box. Even though their feature set is quite similar, Mastadon has a clunky and confusing UI, and still lacks a native iPad app-- instead they offer a poorly ported iPhone app.
That's led to more people using Bluesky, and it snowballs from there.
Is it really that surprising that large companies with lots of money can advertise better than user run instances of open source software?
Instance picking can be overwhelming. Making people just not even try it.
I do think a big challenge for the fediverse is how to ease that. And make it like e-mail where @whocares is not that important and it's easy to actually have a custom domain/instance.
And, of course, to achieve this instance admins should be really be responsible with defederations and bans. And only use it as last resort, probably only because of legal reasons. Not because "I don't like that instance admins main political thesis". Probably that kind of blocks are better to be left to the user.
Bsky is more twitter like and less confusing than mastodon.
Bsky is federated too.
Just bridge them all together. Threads and nostr too. Then everyone can use what they want.
edit: seems this already exists. https://techcrunch.com/2024/07/09/openvibe-combines-mastodon-bluesky-and-nostr-into-one-social-app/
My personal opinion is that it was:
Moved here and never looked back.
Networking effect
Mastodon required people to join a server which made out to people who are used to signing up to a single website for the past 20 years or such, seam too complex.
You also end up in a situation where social media managers have to reach engagement and impression targets and don't think which is best platform that will not be taken over Elon musk or Mark Zuckerberg style, but which will reach engagement targets the quickest.
I use both, but honestly, some mastodon users can't help but be outright patronising and hostile to newcomers.
The whole "we don't do that here" vibe clearly puts folk off. Weirdly, it isn't the long term users that do that, bug more recent converts.
Why do you think that is?