this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2024
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Another Alberta town is eyeing up banning pride flags and crosswalks | Canada (dailyhive.com)
submitted 6 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 39 points 6 days ago (6 children)

there should be no decorations on municipal crosswalks

You could make an argument that crosswalks should be painted a standard colour with expected markings, since it's a safety/accessibility issue that that point.

or displaying of flags supporting political, social, or religious movements or commercial entities

The people who put the package together lumped everything into the same category.

Sure, we should NOT have religious flags on our government buildings. By that token, we should remove any and all religion from those buildings and any texts, too. No mention of God, especially.

Commercial entities? Yeah, they don't belong on government flag poles.

Political? I'd need an example. I would not want to see the flag of various parties on a government building. That's just inappropriate.

But social movements? They stay. I WANT my local, provincial, and federal governments to show support for marginalized groups. That includes our LGBTQ, indigenous, disabled, visible minorities, etc.

I'm proud to see our local fire and police vehicles with rainbow flag stickers on them.

Separate the hate from the reasonable, and this petition might not seem so ass backwards.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 days ago

Separate the hate from the reasonable, and this petition might not seem so ass backwards.

They're adding a few reasonable sounding points to their argument to make the whole thing sound like a rational proposal.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

only national, provincial, and municipal flags should be flown at municipal facilities or flagpoles

I know this is pretty off-topic, but I found this part funny when one of my municipal Councillors proposed a similar bylaw (which thankfully failed). In Canada, municipal governments are creatures of the province, and the provinces have entered into confederation. By their logic, we shouldn't be flying Canadian flags as the country has no direct relation to the municipality.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You are falling exactly into their snare.

It's a "mostly reasonable" petition that will get "mostly reasonable" people to support it. In fact, it is a direct, deliberate, methodical attack on the LGBTQ2+ community, and aimed at making them feel unsafe.

If we were going to call this reasonable and ban all religious iconography from the government, then we shouldn't be allowed to sing God Save the King or O Canada on government property. ("God keep our land/Glorious and Free" since 1980).

This is absolutely hate-based, make no mistake.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago

Make no mistake. I understand exactly the game they are playing.

I would NOT sign a petition like this, even if I agree with most of it.

Because I completely understand that the true motive is to remove flags that support marginalised groups in our country.

But you are correct that they idea of including reasonable points, is exactly to attract reasonable people or to legitimise the rest of it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Very well said. I'm saving this one because I'll never do better with my own brain.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

commercial entities

Here in India, our police barracades have the names of banks on them. Its advertising revenue, but to me it looks like "the police are brought to you by..."

But, really, economic capture means its the same thing

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

our police barracades have the names of banks on them. Its advertising revenue, but to me it looks like β€œthe police are brought to you by…”

Oh god. Like a sports team? LOL

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

But social movements? They stay. I WANT my local, provincial, and federal governments to show support for marginalized groups. That includes our LGBTQ, indigenous, disabled, visible minorities, etc.

This is how you end up with thin blue line flags and other dog whistle neo Nazi flags hanging at the court house.

Because, many will argue, the white male is now a minority thats being oppressed...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Because, many will argue, the white male is now a minority thats being oppressed...

At 49.8% or some similarly dumb number, the facts are there. And I've seen advertisements for jobs etc that say my genetic mix isn't welcome, like being French is a choice or being left-handed. The components of reverse sexism are there.

I hope that if I learn to cope with minor disadvantage, that we can keep the equality movement as an equality movement and not some revenge play where I get penalized too often for something I wasn't a part of.

There. I know my own opinion smells like virtue signalling while it also doesn't placate people who've been hurt and want payba-uh, justice. Ironically I'll be downvoted to hell for promoting equality, I expect.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

over 10% of an Alberta town's population signed a petition

Democracy in action, all voices carry equal weight, majority rules, etc. /s

[–] [email protected] 24 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Alberta being weak again

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

The town of Barrhead has a population of 4320 people. Only ~~10%~~ (correction, 16%) of the town petitioned for this as-yet-unpassed bylaw. Those individuals don't even represent the town of Barrhead, much less the entire province.

I don't mean this personally - I'm surprised that someone who is as vocal about proportional representation as you are would be insensitive to the demographic facts of this matter.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

First off, 851 people (20%) signed the petition.

"Those individuals" who raised this are undoubtedly tied back to Take Back Alberta - or at least, the organizers are.

They will do the same thing that Westlock did: Present this as a neutral "no special interests" policy, and then advertise the shit out of their rational opinion, attacking the woke extremists for forcing their issue on what should be neutral territory.

Then they'll get about a 51% vote - not representative of the entire town, but enough to ban pride symbolism in the town.

Then they'll move onto the next town - maybe Rocky Mountain House or Didsbury or Sexsmith or Brooks. Actually, scratch that - they won't touch a town in Smith's riding for now.

But over time, they'll get the same bylaw passed in another town and another and another, until they can claim most of the rural electoral districts. Then - maybe after getting a few larger towns or even cities (Lethbridge), they'll petition the government. "Clearly the majority of Albertans support this neutrality, so let's make it a provincial law."

And David Parker will sit back, chuckling in his white robe and hat, as he destroys the lives of LGBTQ2+ people, and finishes his second front - banning abortion in the province.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago

Sorry, thank you for the correction on the number of petitioners. I didn't read the article carefully enough. From the article:

The total number of petitioners submitted to the Town of Barrhead landed at 851, with the total accepted petitioners coming out to 712.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm just cranky that 54% of Alberta supports conservative and has the most anti-trans stance. Yes, its true Albertans are not a monolith.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

For the record I don't like what the UCP are doing in Alberta right now either, and I don't think their approach represents acceptable governance.

You didn't infer this, but I want to say for the record that it would be incorrect to infer, that just because the UCP received 54-ish% of the popular vote in the last provincial general election, it doesn't follow that 54% of the population of Alberta is anti-trans. The UCP as a political entity takes aggressive stances on a bundle of issues that rationally-minded conservative voters would (and do) find unappealing. The fact that a Conservative stronghold like Barrhead could only get ~~10%~~ (correction, 16%) of its citizens behind this petition goes to show that the exclusionary thinking at the core of the petition is overwhelmingly not the norm here among the citizens.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

that just because the UCP received 54-ish% of the popular vote in the last provincial general election, it doesn’t follow that 54% of the population of Alberta is anti-trans.

It does mean that 54% is willing to promote UCP even though UCP as an institution is supportive of anti-trans politics. So while not everyone in those 54% might be anti-trans themselves, they are consciously supporting anti-trans politicians, and are effectively helping the anti-trans ideology.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I hear you.

I'm not sure there is really any vote that a thoughtful person could make that doesn't involve some sort of moral compromise. There are things in the AB NDP platform that I really like, and there are some things that I'm indifferent to. There are some things I wish weren't there, and some things that I really wish they made a bigger deal about. Despite that, I'm inclined to vote for them because I align more closely with them than any other provincial party. I think a lot of conservatives feel the same way about the UCP.

Again, I'm not trying to justify UCP policy in any way whatsoever. Kenney and Smith are both fools, and have made the province measurably worse for almost everybody. Despite that, I don't think Alberta should be written off in a casual way. And I don't think even a UCP voter should necessarily be written off. No matter what side of the aisle you're on, a political choice is a balancing act of competing interests and aims.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

There are things in the AB NDP platform that I really like, and there are some things that I'm indifferent to. There are some things I wish weren't there, and some things that I really wish they made a bigger deal about.

When you both-sides like this, though, it trivializes one important contrast: there are ideas the NDP have that I don't agree with, but there are ideas the Cons have that are actually harmful. The different between "what I prefer" and "what allows people to live" is hard to paint with that both-sides brush.

Sure that wasn't the plan, and I'm picking nits; I would totally agree if you said that. But our language may help contrast the two better by focusing on those differences, and sway the vote or bring more to the polls.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

That's fair. Actually I don't think you're nit picking, you're pointing to something that gets to the heart of a critical issue with politics.

The AB NDP aren't far enough left for my taste, and I wish they would have made more meaningful investments and reforms to the education and healthcare systems to make those systems more robust, inclusive, and responsive to the people who use those systems. In not doing that to the degree that I think is fair, I believe they caused harm.

I'm not a policy wonk, and I know that only so much can be accomplished during a single term in office. And as we've seen in AB, much work can be undone by a new administration. But in Alberta, to still have private schools that receive public funding, household declarations allowing tax dollars to funnel into special, separate schools where religious dogma is part of the program of studies, and class sizes being what they are - all these things, according to my values and interests, cause measurable harm. Allowing monopolistic privatized telecom and insurance industries who collude to keep prices high, makes it harder for struggling families to eat and live. Going further, it's arguable that not having a provincial sales tax that directly funds hospitals to improve their ability to efficiently administer emergency care, leads to unnecessary suffering and death. Yet, I have to accept that other citizens with different values and interests than mine will have different, yet still rational and reasonable views about these points.

I don't mean to sound like I'm 'both sides'-ing. I'm just making a comment that political choices are complex. I don't think it's fair to look at 54% of the votes cast for the UCP, and use that as a justification to make sweeping statements about the mindsets of those voters. The petitioners in Barrhead are a good example of the fact that even in a hardcore conservative area, anti inclusive mentalities remain a minority view. I think it's troubling that there are 712 people in Barrhead willing to sign their name to a petition to eliminate pride crosswalks. But the fact that there are only 712 is honestly a relief, in the bigger picture. But the media takes a different angle. And then people say "fuck Alberta, that place is full of crazy people", when the evidence actually suggests that Albertan citizens might be more caring and inclusive than they get credit for. That's all I'm trying to say.

I think the less we write each other off, & the more we actually talk to each other in good faith about issues, values, and ways forward, the better we can be as a society. Political parties are designed to grind whatever axe they think will get or keep them elected. But, every citizen can and should be doing the hard work of honest discourse, regardless of their political stripe.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago

That's hardly fair. An extremely determined and well-organized psychopath - who happens to manipulate the premier's office - has been working on this for a decade. Albertans are pretty fucking wishy-washy and wayyyyyy too right-wing, but the hardcore extremist hatred is being carefully stoked by Nazis. Nazis named Take Back Alberta.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 days ago

So how about we petition to require rainbows everywhere? Apparently you only need 10% of votes

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

In a public information package, the town stated that it received a petition on July 26 that called for crosswalks to only be painted in the standard white striped pattern between two parallel lines; that there should be no decorations on municipal crosswalks or displaying of flags supporting political, social, or religious movements or commercial entities; only national, provincial, and municipal flags should be flown at municipal facilities or flagpoles; and that there would be no grandfathering of existing crosswalks or flags that contravene the bylaw.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

You could almost make this an argument that homes and businesses would not be able to have flags because they go above the side walk. Or have sale signs in front of coffee shops because it's a "decoration". Seems a little too vague. Also a pride flag isn't political, social, religious, or commercial. It's like having brown hair. Homosexuality is natural and observed in over 5000 species.

The part I would agree with is the crosswalk part, purely from a safety perspective.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

Pride flags are absolutely political in today's landscape.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Yeah, I very much support rainbows and pride stuff in other places, but I have never felt great about rainbow crosswalks. I'm an autistic driver, I do my best to limit distraction and already have to spend so much of my daily "supply" of willpower staying focused on my short drive. Heck, a freshly painted white crosswalk is distracting enough, lol.

But since it's something for the public, if it hasn't actually increased traffic incidents, then I am also fine with it. My personal experience with it isn't universal, after all.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 days ago

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